Supernatural
Aug. 5th, 2011 11:11 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
gwaevalarinI think some people may be getting a wrong impression regarding my feelings towards Supernatural at the moment. I think some people may be getting a wrong impression regarding the entire Castiel (and Cas/Dean) part of the fandom, but I can only speak for myself, and I want to make a few things clear here:
Most importantly: I love this show.
I may be ranting and worrying and complaining a lot lately. I wouldn't do that if I didn't care.
Equally important: I still love Sam and Dean. Maybe not as much as I love Cas and Balthazar and Gabriel and (hate-love) Crowley, but of course I love them. I don't think it's possible to watch this show if you don't.
I also firmly believe that this show, in its core, has always been, will always be, and should always be about these two brothers. They are the heart and soul of Supernatural, and I don't think anyone could possibly doubt that.
BUT it can't be only about them. These two characters need other characters to interact with, to make their universe come to life. The two most important other characters - John and Mary aside - who form their family, are Bobby and Castiel. These two are, in my eyes, an integral part of the show. They are important to the boys and to the show. And they deserve to be treated that way.
I've read several times on tumblr how "the Castiel fandom wants this show to be just about him". This is complete and utter nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. What I want is the show to treat Castiel as the important character, and the important part of the boys' life that he has proven to be over the last three years. What I want is the show to acknowledge him as this important character and not use him as a cheap plot devise.
And here is another very important thing: The way Castiel's storyline is going right now - and no, we don't know for sure what is going to happen, but we are getting quite a few hints, and this theme already started very early in season 6 - doesn't only affect Cas, it also reflects on Sam and Dean.
Sam and Dean love each other more than anything and I wouldn't have it any other way. They are also both broken, and fucked up and co-dependent to a more than unhealthy degree, and again, I wouldn't really have it any other way, because that's what makes them interesting. But underneath all this, they have always been heroes in their own way. They made mistakes, they sometimes chose questionable paths, they lost people, but they cared. That's what always made them sympathetic characters, that they tried and that they cared. And then season 6 came along, and Cas was fighting his civil war in Heaven, trying to stop Raphael from restarting the Apocalypse - and yes, Cas too made mistakes and very questionable decisions, but he cared - and to me it felt like everytime Dean called him, the general tenor was:
Cas: "I'm fighting a civil war in Heaven trying to save what we - you and me - fought for."
Dean: "Fuck that, I don't care! There is something wrong with Sam. That's more important."
It's okay that Dean worried about Sam, and wanted him fixed more than anything. But he did it at the potential cost of the entire world burning, and he acted like that didn't matter - until it was too late. And that is not the Winchester boys I love. The Winchester boys I love would do everything for each other and sacrifice themselves for each other, but not at the cost of other people suffering the consequences.
Another thing I feel needs to be said: Characters, even important ones sometimes leave a story for the sake of the story and their own storyline. They might continue their own story somewhere else, in Supernatural it usually means that they die - and when I say "die" I mean the ones who die and do not just come back. And when I say "important characters", I mean the ones who have been in more than one episode, who stole our hearts, and left their signature on the show and Sam and Dean's life.
The important thing is how they leave.
Take Gabriel for example. I love him, and I hated to see him go. But I also feel that he got the ending he deserved. He stood up for what he believed in and died tragically but heroically, and true to his character. And while I miss him terribly, that is the reason why I don't think I want him to return. Because I'm afraid it would ruin his perfect exit. Same goes for Ellen and Jo.
Then there are character deaths that weren't exceptional, but still acceptable and true to the characters, like Bela - who, in case you don't know, I liked a lot - or Andy.
And then there are character deaths that are unnecessary and just nowhere near what the character deserved, like what happened to Balthazar. Had he died trying to save Cas, I would have been a sobbing mess, but it would have been okay in the end. I can even come up with scenarios where Castiel kills Balthazar that would have been acceptable. But not the way it was done, and certainly not without showing us his burnt wings, and without giving Castiel at least a moment to really grieve the death of the angel who was his best friend for millennia. Not without Balthazar's death having at least some impact on Castiel's storyline, and if it's only a moment of hesitation before opening Purgatory. Not like this.
And what I'm afraid of most right now, is that Castiel will leave the show in a way that is even worse than the way I lost Balthazar.
And last but not least: I pretty much only talk about how I want Castiel to be okay and Balthazar to come back because they are the characters I care most about, but I understand every other part of this fandom who is fighting for their beloved characters, whether I like them or not.
Even though I personally am in two minds about this, l feel for the Gabriel fandom who want their angel back - and who were given false hope at the beginning of season 6.
I feel most for those people in the fandom who love Adam. Sam and Dean might not have known him too long but he is their brother. And while family doesn't end with blood, blood is still family. Not to mention that he is an innocent who was dragged into this fight, and who is now locked into the deepest pits of hell with Lucifer and Michael, suffering the same way Sam did down there, but for so much longer. And Sam and Dean don't even so much as mention him, let alone try to save him, which reflects on them in a similar way their treatment of Cas and the situation in Heaven does.
I'm not fighting the fights for these characters, but what I won't ever do is tell the people who do that their favourite characters don't matter, or that they aren't "real fans". All these characters are important parts of Sam and Dean's world in their own way. And if there are people out there who love them then they have every right to fight for them just like I fight for my angels.
And here is another very important reason why - despite everything - I won't leave anytime soon: I love this fandom and I love the cast (and, most of the time, the crew)
This fandom, with all its wank and fighting, still is a big family. An most of the people I know support each other, and respect each other's opinion. There are quite a few black sheep, and that can hurt, but at the end of the day, most of you - and certainly everyone on my flist - are the most insane-in-a-good-way, creative, passionate, kind, unique bunch of people I've ever met. And even if the show should go downhill completely, I wouldn't leave because I don't want to leave YOU.
And this crazy, big family includes a lot of the actors, and quite a few of the writers, directors and other people working on the show. I don't think there is any other fandom where the actors are that involved and care that much. Be it Twitter, or cons, or insiders they send our way in interviews. They are just as completely insane as we are, and they never fail to brighten up my day.
I feel like I have found my home. Maybe we will move on one day, maybe we will go our separate ways at some point, maybe we will meet again in a different fandom. But for now, you are my family and this show is my home.
And this is exactly why I still love this show with all my heart. And this is equally why I worry and complain so much when I feel that things go terribly wrong. Because I care.
See a theme here?
ETA: Spoilers in the comments. You've been warned
Most importantly: I love this show.
I may be ranting and worrying and complaining a lot lately. I wouldn't do that if I didn't care.
Equally important: I still love Sam and Dean. Maybe not as much as I love Cas and Balthazar and Gabriel and (hate-love) Crowley, but of course I love them. I don't think it's possible to watch this show if you don't.
I also firmly believe that this show, in its core, has always been, will always be, and should always be about these two brothers. They are the heart and soul of Supernatural, and I don't think anyone could possibly doubt that.
BUT it can't be only about them. These two characters need other characters to interact with, to make their universe come to life. The two most important other characters - John and Mary aside - who form their family, are Bobby and Castiel. These two are, in my eyes, an integral part of the show. They are important to the boys and to the show. And they deserve to be treated that way.
I've read several times on tumblr how "the Castiel fandom wants this show to be just about him". This is complete and utter nonsense, as far as I'm concerned. What I want is the show to treat Castiel as the important character, and the important part of the boys' life that he has proven to be over the last three years. What I want is the show to acknowledge him as this important character and not use him as a cheap plot devise.
And here is another very important thing: The way Castiel's storyline is going right now - and no, we don't know for sure what is going to happen, but we are getting quite a few hints, and this theme already started very early in season 6 - doesn't only affect Cas, it also reflects on Sam and Dean.
Sam and Dean love each other more than anything and I wouldn't have it any other way. They are also both broken, and fucked up and co-dependent to a more than unhealthy degree, and again, I wouldn't really have it any other way, because that's what makes them interesting. But underneath all this, they have always been heroes in their own way. They made mistakes, they sometimes chose questionable paths, they lost people, but they cared. That's what always made them sympathetic characters, that they tried and that they cared. And then season 6 came along, and Cas was fighting his civil war in Heaven, trying to stop Raphael from restarting the Apocalypse - and yes, Cas too made mistakes and very questionable decisions, but he cared - and to me it felt like everytime Dean called him, the general tenor was:
Cas: "I'm fighting a civil war in Heaven trying to save what we - you and me - fought for."
Dean: "Fuck that, I don't care! There is something wrong with Sam. That's more important."
It's okay that Dean worried about Sam, and wanted him fixed more than anything. But he did it at the potential cost of the entire world burning, and he acted like that didn't matter - until it was too late. And that is not the Winchester boys I love. The Winchester boys I love would do everything for each other and sacrifice themselves for each other, but not at the cost of other people suffering the consequences.
Another thing I feel needs to be said: Characters, even important ones sometimes leave a story for the sake of the story and their own storyline. They might continue their own story somewhere else, in Supernatural it usually means that they die - and when I say "die" I mean the ones who die and do not just come back. And when I say "important characters", I mean the ones who have been in more than one episode, who stole our hearts, and left their signature on the show and Sam and Dean's life.
The important thing is how they leave.
Take Gabriel for example. I love him, and I hated to see him go. But I also feel that he got the ending he deserved. He stood up for what he believed in and died tragically but heroically, and true to his character. And while I miss him terribly, that is the reason why I don't think I want him to return. Because I'm afraid it would ruin his perfect exit. Same goes for Ellen and Jo.
Then there are character deaths that weren't exceptional, but still acceptable and true to the characters, like Bela - who, in case you don't know, I liked a lot - or Andy.
And then there are character deaths that are unnecessary and just nowhere near what the character deserved, like what happened to Balthazar. Had he died trying to save Cas, I would have been a sobbing mess, but it would have been okay in the end. I can even come up with scenarios where Castiel kills Balthazar that would have been acceptable. But not the way it was done, and certainly not without showing us his burnt wings, and without giving Castiel at least a moment to really grieve the death of the angel who was his best friend for millennia. Not without Balthazar's death having at least some impact on Castiel's storyline, and if it's only a moment of hesitation before opening Purgatory. Not like this.
And what I'm afraid of most right now, is that Castiel will leave the show in a way that is even worse than the way I lost Balthazar.
And last but not least: I pretty much only talk about how I want Castiel to be okay and Balthazar to come back because they are the characters I care most about, but I understand every other part of this fandom who is fighting for their beloved characters, whether I like them or not.
Even though I personally am in two minds about this, l feel for the Gabriel fandom who want their angel back - and who were given false hope at the beginning of season 6.
I feel most for those people in the fandom who love Adam. Sam and Dean might not have known him too long but he is their brother. And while family doesn't end with blood, blood is still family. Not to mention that he is an innocent who was dragged into this fight, and who is now locked into the deepest pits of hell with Lucifer and Michael, suffering the same way Sam did down there, but for so much longer. And Sam and Dean don't even so much as mention him, let alone try to save him, which reflects on them in a similar way their treatment of Cas and the situation in Heaven does.
I'm not fighting the fights for these characters, but what I won't ever do is tell the people who do that their favourite characters don't matter, or that they aren't "real fans". All these characters are important parts of Sam and Dean's world in their own way. And if there are people out there who love them then they have every right to fight for them just like I fight for my angels.
And here is another very important reason why - despite everything - I won't leave anytime soon: I love this fandom and I love the cast (and, most of the time, the crew)
This fandom, with all its wank and fighting, still is a big family. An most of the people I know support each other, and respect each other's opinion. There are quite a few black sheep, and that can hurt, but at the end of the day, most of you - and certainly everyone on my flist - are the most insane-in-a-good-way, creative, passionate, kind, unique bunch of people I've ever met. And even if the show should go downhill completely, I wouldn't leave because I don't want to leave YOU.
And this crazy, big family includes a lot of the actors, and quite a few of the writers, directors and other people working on the show. I don't think there is any other fandom where the actors are that involved and care that much. Be it Twitter, or cons, or insiders they send our way in interviews. They are just as completely insane as we are, and they never fail to brighten up my day.
I feel like I have found my home. Maybe we will move on one day, maybe we will go our separate ways at some point, maybe we will meet again in a different fandom. But for now, you are my family and this show is my home.
And this is exactly why I still love this show with all my heart. And this is equally why I worry and complain so much when I feel that things go terribly wrong. Because I care.
See a theme here?
ETA: Spoilers in the comments. You've been warned
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2011-08-05 10:36 am (UTC)He always wanted to be the big cheese, he always wanted power.
And as far as the apocolypse, well the boys had already been there done that. Why should they help the Angels yet again. Why can't he save his brother. Why should he and his brother live like this. He should fight for Sam, that is family that is also for him. Its not selfish, its the fight he should of been fighting imo.
Why should Dean fight in an angel civil war. What has that got to do with him. Can't the angels handle it for once without using humans to do it for them. Especially Sam and Dean who have been through enough. And then we find out that Castiel did this too both of the boys in his 'fight' to do what the boys have been fighting for the last 5 years.
Sam and Dean have a right to not fight someone elses war for a change. It would be horrible for him to ignore Sam for Castiels problem. Castiel was on a path to eat monster souls. That was his story now. He used the boys to work with Crowley, he lied to them, manipulated them, blamed Dean for nearly killing his brother just because he wanted his brother to have his soul back no matter what.
As much as you think that castiel is an integral part of the show, he isn't. He IS a plot device. He is there to helpo tell the Sam and Dean story and now this could be over. The show isn't about Castiel, its about how the boys are getting through this life of theres.
And its time to open up that world because if there is anything that is unhealthy and co-dependant it would have to be the realationship with Castiel.
This story didn't start as an angels story or anything to do with angels so it surely can go back to being about the boys and what their part in the mytharc is about. Personal to them. Not Castiel. The fact is that family is blood and the boys are soul mates and its unfair to try to take that away from them and make everyone family like the two of them are together.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-05 12:03 pm (UTC)He always wanted to be the big cheese, he always wanted power.
I honestly don't know where you're taking that from. Before the season 6 finale, when was it ever as much as hinted that Castiel wanted power?
About the angelic civil war, I think you're missing my point. I never expected Sam and Dean to join the war, or for Dean to choose this war over Sam. Neither did Cas, apparently, which, ironically enough, is one of the things Dean is blaming him for in 6x20.
I also don't deny that Castiel did some questionable things, but he did them in a desperate situation. He did them, because it was the only possible option he saw to win this war, and keep the people he loved safe.
But all that aside, like Castiel, don't like him, approve of what he did, or don't, how is Castiel taking away from the relatonship between Sam and Dean? How does the two of them having friends - or God forbid family - other than each other make their bond any less important?
Like I said in my post, I completely agree that Sam and Dean are the heart of this show, and that they won't ever love anyone more than they love each other.
But if that means that they can never truly care about another character, if that means that no other character can ever be important enough so (s)he can't just be tossed aside, then that's a truly lonely and hopeless world they are living in.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-05 05:08 pm (UTC)That's one of the reasons why Castiel is such a great character. He has never been the prime focus; there has never been a season that revolves solely around him. The same can be said for Bobby. I don't understand the fans who say "Castiel's time has come because everyone in Supernatural dies eventually." I always sit there thinking, what about Bobby? Not that I'm encouraging Bobby's demise, but why are people so anxious to get Castiel off of Supernatural--who has only been there for 3 seasons--when we've practically known Bobby for about 6? It's pretty unjust to say that all characters on Supernatural have to die--except Sam and Dean--then completely ignore Bobby's presence. It's a convenient excuse in a way. Don't get me wrong, I love Bobby and I never want him to leave, but it's a pretty lame excuse to say, "all extraneous characters must die... except Bobby."
On that note, if all characters MUST die, why wasn't Castiel given a death that honored his character? He's been around just as long as Gabriel--who had a great death, worthy of his character--and he's probably been relevant for as long as Jo and Ellen, given that we met them in season 2 and I don't recall hearing back from them until season 5, and THEY have one of the most memorable deaths that I can recall. Everyone in Supernatural gets the death they deserve. Instead, it was decided that Castiel's character would be marred and destroyed to the (I'm assuming the hopeful) point that fans would hate him and actually WANT to see him die. I don't want Castiel to leave ever--nor should the show be just about Castiel--but if his time truly had come in the writers' eyes, then a fitting death would have been better. Why plan out an entire season around making a fan-favorite a bad guy--which completely negates all premises they set for said character in the past 2 years--when it would have been so much easier AND enjoyable for the Castiel fans (who do make up quite a number of fans of Supernatural) if he'd been given a death worthy of his character?
On a final note, because it's one of the comments I see ALL the time which pisses me off to no end, when has the show ever NOT been about Sam and Dean? Who are these people who say "now the show can FINALLY go back to being about Sam and Dean"? Last I checked, the show has only ever followed Sam and Dean. Yes, we had an episode that followed Bobby and Castiel in season 6, but other than that, all other side characters have been just that: side characters. I don't know where this premise has come about, but it seriously bothers me. I must be watching a different show than these people.
So to recap: You're awesome and you've explain a Castiel fan's mind frame beautifully! Thank you xD
no subject
Date: 2011-08-05 06:14 pm (UTC)Bobby does seem to be the exception the "everyone has to die" rule. I don't know why. I don't really get the "everyone has to die" rule in the first place. I know it's an angsty show, but does that really have to mean that every single character we may care about has to die? Can't someone walk out of the story and continue it somewhere else once in a while? Can't any other character just stick around like Bobby does?
But okay, if Castiel does have to go, I'll accept that. It'll break my heart, but I'll accept it. But only if he goes in a way that does justice to his character.
And even though I still hate it, I may even be able to accept him going down this extremely dark path, but only if they make it make sense with everything we know about him, and if they follow that story through and redeem him in the end - which might still happen, but I think we can all agree that it is extremely doubtful at this point.
What I can't accept is starting this storyline by character assassinating a fan favourite who has been around for three years, and then basically telling us that they don't plan to properly follow through with it. If they don't want that much focus on Castiel, they shouldn't start something like this.
On a final note, because it's one of the comments I see ALL the time which pisses me off to no end, when has the show ever NOT been about Sam and Dean? Who are these people who say "now the show can FINALLY go back to being about Sam and Dean"?
That's something that baffles and annoys me every time I read it. Sure, in theory Cas had huge storylines in season 5 (the search for God) and season 6 (the civil war in Heaven), but they both happened almost entirely off screen. So I really don't see how that took time or focus away from Sam and Dean.
Thank you for commenting. *hugs*
no subject
Date: 2011-08-06 09:57 am (UTC)I'll add a couple of cents though:
it felt like everytime Dean called him, the general tenor was:
Cas: "I'm fighting a civil war in Heaven trying to save what we - you and me - fought for."
Dean: "Fuck that, I don't care! There is something wrong with Sam. That's more important."
Yes, it did. It felt exactly like that. And that was such a horrible feeling that I spent most of my S06 energy trying to deny it because wtf Dean aren't you better than that by now? BUT, having looked over all of that, I'm starting to think Dean's seemingly callous attitude to Cas all season was a deliberate decision on the writers' part. It was them playing up the miscommuication and mixed signals between the two characters, which would ultimately push Castiel down his dark path in the finale. They were intentially showing the negative side to Dean's character and how his snark and inability to deal with or show his feelings can have painful consequences.
IMO, and it's been said before but I'm coming from a different angle this time, it's an arc similar to Dean and Sam's over S04-5. S04 was about showing how Sam and Dean had communication issues (among others) that ultimately pushed Sam into darkness, leading to S05 being about the two of them confronting those issues, learning to forgive each other (because yes, Sam starting the apocalyse, but Dean did stuff wrong too and Sam have to get over that) and establishing a stronger bond as a result.
SO. If we take it that Dean (and to a lessen extent Sam) and Castiel's S06 plot is, roughly, a similar beast to Sam and Dean's S04 one - S06 SHOULD LOGICALLY (AND EMOTIONALLY) MATCH UP IN SOME WAY TO SAM AND DEAN'S JOURNEY TOGETHER IN S05. Which means saving Cas. Which means forgiveness. Which means all of them coming to a better understanding of each other.
...whether the show will deliever this payoff...well. But THIS IS THE SET UP I'M SEEING. The set up they've spent all S06 providing.
I'm not asking them to spend the whole season on it like they did with Sam and Dean in S05. I just want the arc to BE THERE. Because if it is then for me all of S06 will have been worth it and it will be amazing, it will mean the boys' story with Castiel has truely been completed having evolved through a proper range of the emotional and narrative spectrum (because I can't understand the people who argue the angel storyline in the show has run its course, when it seems so very much incomplete to me at the moment!)
Not long now until we find out where the show's actually going anyway... *crosses fingers for Cas*
no subject
Date: 2011-08-06 10:21 am (UTC)I hate this so much for many reasons, but I think you're wrong about Bal's death not having an impact on Castiel's storyline. It DID have an impact... it was just a non-impact. His death was the way it was PRECISELY to show that Castiel felt nothing about it, to show Cas had cut himself off from everyone he cared about, everyone who cared about HIM, in order to focus on his mission. It was to show how far Cas had fallen, how far the misunderstandings and miscommunications had pushed him.
Was it too far?
Maybe.
But it's there and we have to deal with it now :( So I will forever believe Bal WAS being somewhat heroic in that scene. He was being heroic JUST BY BEING THERE. Because when he gave Sam and Dean the adress of where Cas would be he was SCARED AND ASHAMED. He made a point of saying they were 'betraying a friend' (shame) and that the friend was 'very powerful' (fear). So when he answered Cas' call later I can't help but think he must have at least suspected that Cas had found him out, and then when Cas talked about learning of a traitor... Bal could have run. But it's my headcanon that he knew he'd been discovered, knew Cas was going to misunderstand, but he stayed with Cas ANYWAY even though he was afraid, he stayed to let Cas dish out whatever punishment he thought he had to, even death, because in the end Castiel always had little old Bal, even if Cas didn't know it :(
It might not have been an epicly heroic death, like Gabriel's. But Balthazar wasn't a hero, and that was what I loved about him. He was self-serving and selfish, with just a SHRED of decency under it all. So it never bothered me that he went to Sam and Dean behind Cas' back. Balthazar learned about humanity and human ways in secret and through deception, so it makes sense to me that he would first and foremost use subterfuge as a means of helping save Castiel from himself and from taking on Purgatory - an honest confrontation with Cas wouldn't have seemed viable to Bal, who has always achieved his aims via sneakier means.
So, where was I? Yes, Bal's death wasn't heroic, but neither was his character, so while it was a painful and heartbreaking death, I don't think it was entirely unfitting...
The one thing to DO agree with you on though is - why no wings? That would have been the PERFECT conclusion to his death, the perfect poignant image to close his storyline on. Why weren't they there? ...is it because...because his storyline is NOT closed? I'm scared to think it cos it seems too much like wishful thinking but...?
no subject
Date: 2011-08-06 12:07 pm (UTC)He was the one to call Castiel when he learnt about the deal with Crowley. He didn't have to. He could just have run right there and then. He didn't. He could have told Castiel that he was with him, and then stay in the background and out of harms way as much as possible. Again, he didn't. He actively decided to "betray" Cas by going to Sam and Dean. And I'm convinced that he did it because he just couldn't stand by and watch Castiel destroy himself.
I don't think he lied when he said he was "in for a penny, in for a pound". He just wasn't in as in helping Castiel follow through with his plan. He was in as in staying at Castiel's side and protecting him in any way he still could, even if that meant betraying him.
I also agree that Balthazar probably knew that Castiel had found him out, and he still came because he would never leave Castiel, even if he had to pay for that with his life.
And yes, maybe you are right, maybe Castiel just was too far gone already. Maybe I just love this character and the relationship between my two angels too much. I just wanted something, you know. Just a small gesture, like some pain, or even just disappointment, from Castiel. Like Cas catching Balthazar's vessel and lowering him to the ground. Just something. But maybe I should just learn to make "Yes, I'll always have you" be enough.
And really, when I think about it, in the end it probably does come down to the wings for me. That is the one thing, that even after weeks, I still can't get over. Unless, of course, there is some significance to it, and we will see Bal again, or learn why there were no wings.
But for now, I just hate that they weren't there. One, because it feels a little like Balthazar wasn't seen as important enough to give him even this one second that is only about him. And two, I think I needed this short moment, this short tragic and yet so beautiful moment of seeing Balthazar's wings, for closure. And as long as I don't get this, I don't know how to deal with having lost him.
That may sound stupid, because it's such a short shot that changes nothing about what happened, but I'm seriously still struggling with this.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-06 02:35 pm (UTC)Yes. I would have preferred this too. Like with Rachael, who got a heartfelt 'I'm sorry' and was attacked in self-defense, not as a pre-meditated murder... When I think back over the episode, and the couple of times I've rewatched it, Castiel's killing of Bal is STILL the part that sticks the most, the part I have to psyche myself up for, the part I have the most trouble getting my mind and my heart around because... I get that he felt betrayed (it was a betrayal), I get that he wanted to distance himself from Bal, that he wanted to distance himself from everyone, Sam and Dean too, because he wanted to stop caring about them, because caring about them made their actions against him so painful... but did he have to go so far as KILLING Bal to achieve that distance?
He distanced himself from Sam by breaking his wall.
But Dean? All Cas did to keep Dean at a distance was TELL HIM - 'I don't care what you think.'
Gah. I'm rambling now and not sure where I'm going with this. Really, being the massive Dean/Cas shipper I am, I am probably glad, deep down, that Cas' affection for Dean was the hardest that Cas found to back away from but just... it still hurts that Cas seemed to be able to remove himself from his affection for Bal so completely :( My friend Kate argues this is because Cas never had any affection for Bal, and I guess there is an argument that the relationship was mostly one-sided on Bal's part. But Cas called him a 'good friend' and I think that meant something.
And I get what you mean about the wings being closure. Because EVERY major angel that's died has had a wing shot, which makes Balthazar an anomaly, something different, something new. It's hard NOT to see some meaning in that and while I was willing to write it off at first because I didn't want to get my hopes up, everytime I think of Bal this fact inevitably crops up until it reaches the point where it's the only thing I can think about, my mind chorusing over and over 'what does it mean what does it mean?' So, yeah, it's reached the point where even if the writers confirmed it was meaningless that there were no wings it will forever being meaningful to me!
Guess we'll be stupid and crazy over this together *clings*
no subject
Date: 2011-08-06 03:21 pm (UTC)Of course I didn't expect them to put as much focus on Castiel's relationship with Balthazar as they did on his relationship with Dean. But these two angels have this massive history together, and it just felt like that was all rendered insignificant.
And while I do agree that Balthazar cares more about Castiel than Castiel cares about Balthazar - I almost see it a bit like Castiel and Dean in reverse - the show did give me the impression that they were close, and that they had been close possibly since they were created. And then all of this was just ripped apart in one scene, when it could so easily have been saved by one little gesture. And I'm pretty sure that will always feel wrong to me.
Guess we'll be stupid and crazy over this together *clings*
It feels good to know that I'm not completely alone with this. *clings back*
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Date: 2011-08-06 05:23 pm (UTC)See, I can see how you can take that away and take the ship there, but I never really saw Cas/Bal that way. Because if they were THAT close all along, had THAT much history, then how could Bal fake his death and leave Cas alone for so long? AND act so blaze about the whole thing in The Third Man (ie. I mourned your death - oh, yeah, sorry about that, I had to...)
So, yeah, I don't think it's as strong as Dean/Cas in reverse. Cas and Bal have a bond, but not one I'd call profound, you know?
But I sympathise with how it must feel for your interpretation :( *hug*
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Date: 2011-08-07 05:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-06 12:05 pm (UTC)I can't even tell you how much I hope that you are right with your S4 parallel. Because that is exactly what I need to make this all be okay in the end. I really don't ask it to be the focus of the season, at all. But, like you say, I need to to BE THERE, and I need them to follow through with this. And without giving any spoilers away, because I know that you like to stay spoiler-free, but about 90% of what I'm hearing doesn't exactly make me confident that they will.
I'm not saying that all hope is lost. I'm just saying that I'm having a very hard time to trust in the show. I'm trying, but damn, it can be hard.
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Date: 2011-08-06 02:13 pm (UTC)In this particular issue, my usual attitude towards spoilers has been somewhat lax because I'm SO emotionally invested I want to know the worst ASAP. I know about Misha's change in status, of course. I know Cas is in the first couple of eps. I know the third ep is directed by Jensen and has no Misha (and as such I don't care to know anything about it at all). I know the first episode name. I've seen a picture of Godstiel standing with his arms folded in Heaven, expression what I would term cold or even cruel...
All of that I can cope with. All of that COULD be the start of a redemption arc that is not going to be the focus of the season but is there nonetheless.
...
...
...what else do you know? *wibbles*
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Date: 2011-08-06 03:08 pm (UTC)First for the things that make me slightly nervous:
Misha said something about missing the crew in Vancouver and generally starts talking about the show in the past tense. But apparently they added "on a day to day basis" since I first read the interview, so that's not as worrying any more. Okay, good I took another look then.
Misha also does state very clearly that he doesn't know about "any specific plans to redeem Cas at this point" and that he doesn't know what episodes he's going to be in beyond the first two.
But yeah, that could all still possibly turn out alright.
The one thing that I really, really don't like - and this is quite a bit of a plot spoiler:
Apparently Castiel will not fix Sam's wall because "he wants Sam to suffer for a while".
And that's just going too far into the actual "evil" category for my taste. It probably still can work out. After all Sam tried to kill him, so it it's not as if Cas doesn't have any reason to be cross with Sam. But it worries me. In my head canon, Castiel - even as a vengeful god - will still always try to do the right thing. That's what he wanted, right, to be a better god? And now letting Sam suffer, when he promised Dean that he'd fix him... I feel they're getting to a point where I don't know how they are supposed to fix this any more. To redeem Castiel, there has to be at least something of the old Cas, and of the bond between him and Dean left, that Cas can go back to.
But maybe I'm just reading too much into all this.
I guess it's mainly that all those small things from this interview and that article, that aren't really that bad on their own, just seem to come together and paint this rather dark picture.
But it's quite possible I just worry too much.
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Date: 2011-08-06 05:36 pm (UTC)Like the Cas haters need any MORE fuel - they are already calling for his blood for breaking the wall in the first place and saying it's unforgivable.
...that does sound worrying.
Like you say, depending on how it's handled, it could be in retaliation for Sam stabbing him, and that could be quite good - showing how revenge and eye-for-eye punishment and grudges can spiral out of control and ultimately leading to everyone discovering that forgiveness is the key to ending things.
Phew... I'll try not fret about this since we can't know for sure until the show starts how they're gonna play it, but you're right, it does seem rather bleak at the moment :/
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Date: 2011-08-08 01:54 am (UTC)How did you like the Castiel/Ghostfacers episode? I was amused with Castiel's reactions because we really never got to see that mix of humor and frustration at once! Poor Cas! :D
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Date: 2011-08-08 11:12 am (UTC)I LOVED the Ghostfacer episode with Castiel. I laughed so hard, and at the same time it was so bittersweet seeing MY angel again and realising how much I miss the old Castiel.
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Date: 2011-08-09 02:29 am (UTC)This is my problem. This is the thing that bothers me the most. Yes, Supernatural is the Sam & Dean show, (my favorite episode is Mystery Spot after all) but that doesn't lessen the importance of Castiel. I mean Dean said it himself- they're Team Free Will. Dean, Sam, Bobby, and Castiel are a family. Yet in season 6 Castiel and Dean were both written out of character simply to serve the plot. This of course made the story feel forced and contrived because thematically Supernatural has always been a story about family. Castiel has always been an important and endearing character on the show- if he wasn't they would never have expanded Misha's role as they did. This show has evolved from being just the Sam & Dean show, and that's not a bad thing. Good stories progress, not stagnate.
What!? Seriously? Where in the world did they get that idea? How does, "Turning Cas into god doesn't ring true for the character" get interpreted as "Replace the show's focus on Sam & Dean with focus on Castiel"?
See for me the absent wings is such a small thing because the bigger (and more important mistake) was Cas killing Balty in the first place. Although I think Castiel had more profound bond with Dean at this point, I don't think he'd kill Balty simply because he worked with the Brothers Winchester. It seems so petty and vindictive, which Castiel isn't. It's the characterization that bothers me not that the TPTB omitted a wings shot. There are more serious story issues to worry about imho.
*shrugs shoulders* Usually when I'm this fed up with bad writing I give up on a series. I haven't this time because 1) I just started watching the show a year ago and 2) the series is way more thought provoking than it has any right to be. I dismissed this show as teeny-bopper garbage for the longest time, but a couple of my family members insisted that I give it a try. Now I love the characters, I love the themes, and I love the mythology. The writers have gold in their hands and I just don't want to see any potential wasted. I actually went so far to write a letter to Sera Gamble about the Godstiel plot to let her know why it's such a bad idea. You can see she thoughtfully considered my words, taking my reasoning into account [/sarcasm]. I'll keep watching it too though- Supernatural is bigger than any one character (even though the nerdy angel is my favorite).
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Date: 2011-08-09 09:33 am (UTC)Exactly! Everytime I hear someone say that the show should go back to the way it was in season 1, I want to scream. You can't go back. Characters develop, and change. People other than the main characters come in and have an impact. You can't just go back to the way things were years ago without destroying every bit of character and story development you've achieved.
About the Balthazar situation: Of course the absent wings are just a small things, and there are definitely issues here that are way more important. It's just something that, for some reason I don't quite understand myself, is incredibly important to me personally, and that's why I keep bringing it up.
But yes, the entire issue of Castiel killing Balthazar just like that bothers me too. No matter from which angle I look at it, I can't get it to make sense, not the way it was done on the show.
But despite everything, this show still has all this potential, and it still has great writing and storytelling in between the stuff that doesn't make sense. And I just keep hoping that they will turn this around and get back, not to the way things were in earlier seasons, but to the quality of the stories, character development, and the overall mythology.