Musings about the Quality of Storytelling

[gwaevalarin]

I'm watching all the reactions to the season 8 spoilers here and on tumblr, and it has me thinking about why people with similar preferences react so differently, my own feelings about them, and about the quality of the show in general.

I think at the very core of all this is the difference between good and bad storytelling vs. storylines I like or dislike.

Season 6 and 7 were, in my opinion, just bad storytelling. That's why I dislike them so much.

Personally, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced I could have loved some of the storylines if done right. The entire civil war in Heaven storyline including Castiel's fall, even just as secondary storyline, could have been as brilliant as it was/should have been tragic. The reason why I hated it is because it was executed poorly and left me angry when it should have left me heatbroken.

When I read the spoilers for season 8, I'm not sure I'm going to like the storyline they have in store for Castiel (if there even really is one). But hearing the interviews with Jeremy Carver and Ben Edlund, I get the impression they know exactly where they want to go, and it has me confident that season 8 will be good storytelling.

I might still hate it. There are a thousand different possibilities of what they might do with Castiel next season, wether he is only in a handful of episodes or all of them. There are dozens of different relationships between him and other characters they may decide to explore or ignore. All of those are valid choices, some I'd love, some I'd hate. Same goes for characters they may or may not bring back.

As long as it's in character, and as long as the storyline makes sense, I will respect the writers' choices, even if I strongly dislike them. I may also still be anything between 'This is everything I ever wanted'-happy and deeply disappointed. There is no way of knowing until the episodes have actually aired.

One storyline I won't respect them for, no matter how well it is done - and the one I'm most afraid might still happen - is if Castiel sacrifices himself for Dean yet again. Granted, this isn't a bad storyline in and of itself. But it is one at this point in the show. Ending Castiel's storyline for good this way would have worked two or three years ago. It decidely does not anymore, not with everything Cas has already sacrificed without ever getting as much as a thank you. This is the one storyline that would make sense in theory, but was taken away from the show as a good storyline by the last few seasons. And I sincerly hope Jeremy Carver is aware of that.
If he is, I am confident that I will at least be okay with what's waiting for us in Purgatory and beyond.

Beware of spoilers in the comments

Comments

[raths-kitten.livejournal.com]

You know what I'm thinking? Cas will not show up in the "real life" timeline at all and we'll only see him in the flashbacks, to keep the mystery about what the hell happened. And they'll reveal it in the Christmas hiatus cliffhanger episode, whatever it is. But I would not be surprised if he did scarifise himself for Dean, or is still stuck in purgatory and he only helped Dean get out.

I agree though. Some episodes were great last season, but the overall arc was just crap. It has to be really bad to even get the actors (*coughs*Misha*coughs*) to openly adress it.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

That's the one thing I'm still afraid of, and I can't decide if it's actually likely to happen, or if it's just what would happen if Sera was still in control.

You know what would be really great, though? If they started the storyline like this, you know, Dean being back, no Cas, Dean refuses to talk about what happened, Cas only in flashbacks, etc. And then after a few episodes there is the big reveal - but hey, we all 'know' already that Cas sacrificed himself for Dean in Purgatory, right? - and it turns out that it's something else entirely, something actually unexpected.
If someone could pull this off it's Jeremy Carver, the man who gave us a hilarious Trickster episode, just to reveal at the end that the Trickster is really the archangel Gabriel.

[raths-kitten.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's what I'm hoping for also. Maybe Dean had to hurt Cas or vice versa down there, so that's why Dean doesn't want to talk about it and we don't see Cas. Of course I'm hoping they got "really close", all alone against the monsters, and Dean's embarrassed about that, but that'll never actually happen on the show. ;)

Cas might be off on his own hunt for someone and Dean didn't want to help him because he chose to be with Sam instead and now he has a bad conscience because he left Cas alone instead. Ah, we'll see. I'm excited he's even gonna be in the season at all. And Crowley will be in it a lot as well from what I gathered.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

There are a lot of different possibilities. They might even get out together, but split up then. So I really hope they pick a storyline that's actually fresh and does justice to both their characters.

It does seem Crowley will be in this season a lot, and I'm very much looking forward to that.

I'm also curious about at least one of the new characters and the change of dynamics he/she might bring into the mix.

[raths-kitten.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wonder who/what will follow Dean. Would be fun if it was a female monster. I assume Sam's new girlfriend will die quickly or he'll leave her. They usually do that. Tease with it and get the fandom all riled up and then it's really just a one-episode deal.

There is definitely the possibility for an angel storyline though, since the prophet is still around and obviously important, if Crowley took him. Or maybe that's where Cas went. In hiding with Kevin.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

From what I know about Sam's girlfriend it seems like you're partially right. But I still think she'll stick around for a bit in one way or another.
As for Dean's purgatory friend, I think that might just be the same character as the kind-of-bad-guy spoiler we had a while ago.

With Crowley and Kevin both being a major part of the storyline I don't see how they can possibly not include the angels as well.

[raths-kitten.livejournal.com]

Oh, they said Kevin would be a major part? Cool. Good for the actor, he seemed like he might fit right in and be fun at conventions.

The 'Word of God' stones were super powerful. It would be kind of a waste to only use it as a manual on how to kill Leviathans. Maybe they'll go hunt for more of those stones? Surely God didn't just leave a manual on how to kill Leviathans. (Then again, God liked the Winchesters specifically. LOL.)

Oh, someone shady and maybe good, maybe bad would be awesome. We didn't have that since Cas in season 4, when for half of it, I kept thinking he was Lucifer.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

There is just SO MUCH POTENTIAL, isn't there? Now the writers only have to take it, and do something great with it. Fingers crossed.

We didn't have that since Cas in season 4, when for half of it, I kept thinking he was Lucifer.
Haha, interesting idea. I didn't trust him at first but that possibility never crossed my mind.

[raths-kitten.livejournal.com]

Yes. It's good they left us with potential and not just fucked up shards of wobbly storylines. Maybe they can even use the leviathans properly, since a bunch of them are still around.

We knew Lucifer wanted to taint Sam by then and Cas had black wings. Who could have known all angels would get those.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

You hit the nail on the head perfectly.

What it all comes down to has always been about the quality of storytelling, and how the last seasons severely lacked it. There were tons of amazing concepts and arcs that could have been interesting to delve into, if only they were handled correctly. But they weren't. Most of them were ignored entirely, if not butchered and ruining the continuity of the story itself.

Season six, I felt, was just a huge clutter of stuff and it was evident that they clearly didn't know where to turn to for any sort of direction because of how claustrophobic it was with all that stuff.

Season seven didn't have enough going on, and spent too much time on random fillers instead of focusing the main seasonal arc and character arcs in general.

Neither season had thoroughly planned anything out. It seemed like they had idea they thought sounded cool, but just didn't know what to do with them once they had them. There was no structure to the storytelling, and that's where it all failed and that's why the majority of us have been frustrated with the show. Then again, this show has a history of having amazing concepts but either never following through with their potential or completely tossing them away (ex. going back to the earlier seasons, where Kripke chickened out on many plot arcs because he felt "bored" with them instead of trying to explore and make them work.)

Which is why, I think, the way Carver and Edlund pitched the next season is interesting, but I'm also stepping cautiously into being excited about it. This show has made promises of having specific arcs and storylines that have gotten us excited, but never fully fell through with them. Of course, before we never had any kind of optimism from two people who deeply care about the characters and telling the story the way Carver and Edlund do. Their episodes have been perhaps the most loved because of their quality way of storytelling. I am nervous and concerned about certain things, Castiel for example, but judging from how they love Castiel and how they've written him before, I want to believe that they do have a plan.

It all depends on how it's all executed in the end. Because execution is key when it comes to storytelling. They have the bodywork and the structure laid out, now it's time to really show how the final product is gonna look like. And hopefully, it will be just as what they described it would be.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Everytime I get worried about next season, I remember that these two have written most of my favourite episodes, and that they have always treated the angels as characters in their own rights. Not to mention that they don't just make crazy episodes like "Changing Channels" and "The French Mistake" work, but also manage to tie them into the mythology of the show beautifully.

[rackoninnc.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping that the lack of any "real" spoilers about Castiel continues. Part of the problem with 7 IMHO was that they spoiled the hell out of Castiel's return, so we pretty much knew what was going to happen with a few exceptions. They kept Bobby under wraps, so they should have respected Castiel's character enough to do the same for him. Granted, it probably was a lot easier to cover up Bobby's return, but it made the moment of his return much more exciting.

I have faith that they can turn this runaway bad story telling train around and make Season 8 a good one, so I'm going to sit back...avoid spoilers like the plague...and see what happens!

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Yes, you do have a point there. They told us way too much last season, especially before 7x17 when we knew pretty much the entire episode already.

I personally would like to know a little bit just so I know I don't have to worry too much. But I'm probably just still slightly traumatized from the last two seasons here, and I should rather learn to trust the writers again.

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, actually about everything.

...there is still a LARGE part of me that really really WANTS Cas to go out in a blaze of glory for Dean (and/or Sam) like Ellen and Jo did...because THAT'S the ending I wanted for S06 and, failing that, S07 (although I was never sure it would work in S07 for various reasons). My mind always gravitates back to beautiful images of a bleeding Cas in Dean's arms (or at least beside his kneeling form), or Dean shedding a tear as they burn Cas' body etcetc. I've wanted that for a long time.

So, naturally, when this Purgatory thing kicked off those ideas came back and I thought - YES! This is their chance to do that! And for a while I was happy about it... still am a little excited at the thought of Dean remembering a dead Cas in flashback...

BUT. What you say here, and what others have said on tumblr, is an excellent point - because that story has been DONE with Cas, MULTIPLE TIMES. To try it again... well, if I didn't get the epicness from that storyline I wanted the last few times, the chance I will get it now is... slim. Not because Carver etc. will write it badly, on the contrary, I think he is the very person to do it justice, but because... it is TOO LATE to try that storyline now. It is already undermined by the previous attempts and failures :(

Everything I've heard so far spoiler-wise sounds good though and doesn't seem to be hinting at that kind of plot. Plus we know Edlund AND Carver like Cas. I think they will give him a fresh plot of his own. I am positive about next season still :)

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

I never WANTED that storyline, but I'm sure Jeremy Carver could have done it justice, and would have made it a good one... two years ago.
Most things that went wrong the last few seasons can probably be fixed, but this storyline.... it's ruined for good.

There has been absolutely no indication from the writer that this is where they plan on going with Cas. They haven't really told us anything about his arc. I sometimes have to remind myself that it's only fandom theories that have me worried.
I should probably try to learn to trust the writers again, and not expect the worst case anymore.