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gwaevalarin) wrote2012-12-21 09:49 am
gwaevalarin) wrote2012-12-21 09:49 am
Entry tags:
Unpopular Opinion Time
People keep telling me (or the world in general) that that "whether you look at it platonically or romantically, you cannot deny that Castiel loves Dean" and I'm starting to get really tired of it.
So let me give you a different, 100% shipping free interpretation of canon:
Castiel is the Winchesters', and more specifically Dean's guardian. He very clearly states so in "The Man Who Would Be King".
I'd say it's reasonable to assume that protecting and supporting your charge is something that is about as deeply rooted in an angel's instincts as obeying your superior is.
Side note: That does NOT mean that I don't think Castiel ever cared about the Winchesters, or that he wasn't friends with them. I believe he was in the second half of season 4, and for the most part in season 5, though I do already see first hints of Castiel being snapped back by this guardian-charge bond when he doesn't really want to during season 5.
Before his rebellion, all of this wasn't much of a problem because these two instincts (protect your charge and obey Heaven) kept each other balanced when they needed to. Heaven's old order was by no means a good thing, but it wasn't entirely pointless either.
But then Castiel lost his connection to Heaven in more than one way, by rebelling, by rewriting the rules, by cutting himself off because he can't deal with his guilt. Add to that Castiel's need to belong, the way he used to with his family, and things inevitably get out of control.
There are quite a few moments where he wants to fight it, and gets frustrated that he can't, because he has nothing left to use as a counter balance. Mainly, because he has nothing left.
"Of course, your problems always come first."
"Always happy to bleed for the Winchesters."
Just to name two examples.
Whether he actually WANTS to help the Winchesters in some of the cases becomes pretty much irrelevant because he doesn't really have a choice.
This isn't love by any definiton I will accept, and, to be entirely honest, I believe that the Winchesters are the one thing that still stands between Castiel and actual free will.
The good news is that it seems he's starting to find the strength he needs to pull away, and "rebell" against this second force in his life, in himself - sometimes, tragically, in his own pain: Staying behind in Purgatory for himself. Deciding to face his biggest fear and returning to Heaven, and then, when Naomi doesn't allow it, staying in the retirement home. I have hope that Samandriel may be able to help him as well when/if they finally find each other again. Or Inias, should he ever return. Basically anyone who can give him something to hold on.
The bad news is that I doubt the show will ever truly let him pull free. Which is a shame, really, because this is the ONLY way I see how Cas may actually be able, some day, to build a friendship with the Winchesters again. Just like Heaven needed to change in order to prove that the angels do care about each other, and that they are a family, beyond the former order that gave them no choice, Castiel's relationship with the Winchesters has to change to see if they can actually still be friends (which I sincerely doubt at this point but that's a different topic).
(This post was supposed to go on Tumblr because that's mainly where I've read this in the past. But I realized that if I post it there, it will probably be ripped out of my hands faster than I can say "unpopular opinion", and will most likely regret posting it for as long as it gets notes. As much as I love Tumblr, there is reason why I still prefer LJ for these kinds of posts.)
So let me give you a different, 100% shipping free interpretation of canon:
Castiel is the Winchesters', and more specifically Dean's guardian. He very clearly states so in "The Man Who Would Be King".
I'd say it's reasonable to assume that protecting and supporting your charge is something that is about as deeply rooted in an angel's instincts as obeying your superior is.
Side note: That does NOT mean that I don't think Castiel ever cared about the Winchesters, or that he wasn't friends with them. I believe he was in the second half of season 4, and for the most part in season 5, though I do already see first hints of Castiel being snapped back by this guardian-charge bond when he doesn't really want to during season 5.
Before his rebellion, all of this wasn't much of a problem because these two instincts (protect your charge and obey Heaven) kept each other balanced when they needed to. Heaven's old order was by no means a good thing, but it wasn't entirely pointless either.
But then Castiel lost his connection to Heaven in more than one way, by rebelling, by rewriting the rules, by cutting himself off because he can't deal with his guilt. Add to that Castiel's need to belong, the way he used to with his family, and things inevitably get out of control.
There are quite a few moments where he wants to fight it, and gets frustrated that he can't, because he has nothing left to use as a counter balance. Mainly, because he has nothing left.
"Of course, your problems always come first."
"Always happy to bleed for the Winchesters."
Just to name two examples.
Whether he actually WANTS to help the Winchesters in some of the cases becomes pretty much irrelevant because he doesn't really have a choice.
This isn't love by any definiton I will accept, and, to be entirely honest, I believe that the Winchesters are the one thing that still stands between Castiel and actual free will.
The good news is that it seems he's starting to find the strength he needs to pull away, and "rebell" against this second force in his life, in himself - sometimes, tragically, in his own pain: Staying behind in Purgatory for himself. Deciding to face his biggest fear and returning to Heaven, and then, when Naomi doesn't allow it, staying in the retirement home. I have hope that Samandriel may be able to help him as well when/if they finally find each other again. Or Inias, should he ever return. Basically anyone who can give him something to hold on.
The bad news is that I doubt the show will ever truly let him pull free. Which is a shame, really, because this is the ONLY way I see how Cas may actually be able, some day, to build a friendship with the Winchesters again. Just like Heaven needed to change in order to prove that the angels do care about each other, and that they are a family, beyond the former order that gave them no choice, Castiel's relationship with the Winchesters has to change to see if they can actually still be friends (which I sincerely doubt at this point but that's a different topic).
(This post was supposed to go on Tumblr because that's mainly where I've read this in the past. But I realized that if I post it there, it will probably be ripped out of my hands faster than I can say "unpopular opinion", and will most likely regret posting it for as long as it gets notes. As much as I love Tumblr, there is reason why I still prefer LJ for these kinds of posts.)
no subject
I class the archangels differently - they only show familial love to each other. I consider the archangels a family of 4. I don't believe any of them truly cared for angels below their rank.
I do not interpret what we see in canon of Anna, Rachel, Inias... or even, yet, Samandriel's interactions with other angels or comments about other angels as 'familial love.' Anna showed care for Cas, because being human had taught her about love and stuff, but it never felt much more than workplace affection to me (although it COULD have become more). And I think what the acts/words of the other angels show is a growing awareness of previously suppressed emotions and people starting to acknowledge and embrace their suppressed emotions, but I don't believe those angels truly had a handle on their feelings enough to say they had come to love each other and Cas as free beings who saw who each other and Cas as they really are and loved them for it. The love was a blend of hero worship and camaraderie from sharing a foxhole - not exactly the healthy 'I love you for who you are' love I believe Cas needs.
To be fair - I consider that the same unhealthy love Dean was showing Cas in S06. But I (or in my reading of canon, I) can see Dean improving. I'm not sure about the angels. I'd really really like to see how Heaven is NOW.
If more than half the angels we know qualifies as "individual angels" to you, and you choose to believe that they don't represent most of Heaven then - I guess you can do that. It doesn't sound very likely to me.
So with archangels as separate that leaves Cas, who I feel is unique. Anna, who is also unique to those left in Heaven because she fell, plus she didn't seem to care about angels other than Cas anyway. Balthazar, who I also consider a unique case, and who also didn't seem to care about angels who weren't Cas. Rachel, Inias, Samandriel and Hestor, whose love is problematic to me (well, maybe not Samandriel's - I think he's the first in the new wave of self-aware loving angels you describe). Plus those last are 4 out of hundreds... seems likely to me that they don't represent most of Heaven, yes. I feel like we are shown them BECAUSE they are individual and unique. I see most of Heaven as the faceless angels Cas fought through S05 and the single-minded angels who fought for Raphael.
So, I guess your interpretation is ignoring the last three years of canon to me.
I'm glad there are many people on tumblr with your opinion though. I'd say I promise not to reblog if you post there, but I can't, of course, speak for anyone else.
And I AM sorry I don't see the bond between all the angels you do. I DO care. I hate it when there's an interpretation of something I love that I don't 'get,' it makes me feel like I'm doing the story injustice. And the fact you find my understanding of the bond between Cas and the Winchesters disturbing... disturbs ME, because it makes me scared I'm blinding romanticising abuse and I REALLY don't want to do that. But I'm not doing anything blindly here, I promise, I've thought SO INCREDIBLY HARD about all this.
So when I say 'I'm sorry' it's not so much because I want you to see Cas and the Winchesters' relationship like I do - it's because I'm concerned you must think me a horrible person to like the relationship and... I'm apologising for appearing that person to you, and for how fandom is appearing that way and the show seems to be endorsing an abusive relationship.
IDK. This has got away from me. I'm just overall sad we are on different sides of a divide here and generally 'sorry' about that I suppose.
As long as you're happy? x
no subject
So, I will simply not get any deeper into the relationships between the angels topic, except for one more (mostly rhetorical) question: How can you possibly see Inias's love as problematic? Inias? I think I might actually have an easier time wrapping my head around someone claiming that Balthazar's love is problematic (and I'm sure you have a pretty good idea what that means).
And the fact you find my understanding of the bond between Cas and the Winchesters disturbing... disturbs ME, because it makes me scared I'm blinding romanticising abuse and I REALLY don't want to do that. But I'm not doing anything blindly here, I promise, I've thought SO INCREDIBLY HARD about all this.
I don't doubt that you have thought about it but... I'm afraid I can't help you there. To me, it is and continues to be one of the worst, most abusive relationships I have ever witnessed on any show, and every new episode only confirms it.
So when I say 'I'm sorry' it's not so much because I want you to see Cas and the Winchesters' relationship like I do - it's because I'm concerned you must think me a horrible person to like the relationship and... I'm apologising for appearing that person to you [...]
Oh, honey, no. I do not think that you are a horrible person. We've been friends long enough for me to know that you are not. I don't understand you in this case, at all. And, yes, I might get slightly annoyed sometimes (though, in reality, that has little do do with you personally and more with the general behaviour of parts (!!!) of your ship's fandom), but I will most definitely not judge you as a person based solely on a ship you like.
no subject
Right, I will (try and) say short things now to try and stop this snowballing.
Inias' love - that would fall under the 'hero-worship' and 'foxhole bonding' in my mind (the foxhole being the civil war, because I don't think any of the angels ever really cared for each other much pre-S06, minus the occassional exception, like Bal). I don't doubt that Inias' love is strong, but I question whether it is actually for Cas, as he is, and not just an idolised image of Cas or a love born of the sense of obligation you describe as angels feeling for their 'charges' - Inias, as a lovely angel, seems to feel all angels should love each other and so naturally extends a general love to Cas.
I do think Inias had great potential to come to love Cas 'right' (if we can even actually define love in this way) and be a REAL brother to Cas though. As did Rachel. As does Samandriel. I just don't think, in the onscreen time we saw them, that they were at that point YET.
That's it. The end! I know you see the above differently, that's cool :) I know you won't understand what I'm saying either, and that's cool too :) But that's the answer to your question, as unsatisfactory as it may be :p
To me, it is and continues to be one of the worst, most abusive relationships I have ever witnessed on any show, and every new episode only confirms it.
This is why our differences bug me - because I felt the same about Clex. And being on the opposite side to someone feeling my previous fandom pain makes me feel like a tratior, especially when it's someone I like and whose opinion I value.
Hi ho, ce sera I suppose.
Take it easy, hon x