Unpopular Opinion Time

[gwaevalarin]

People keep telling me (or the world in general) that that "whether you look at it platonically or romantically, you cannot deny that Castiel loves Dean" and I'm starting to get really tired of it.

So let me give you a different, 100% shipping free interpretation of canon:

Castiel is the Winchesters', and more specifically Dean's guardian. He very clearly states so in "The Man Who Would Be King".

I'd say it's reasonable to assume that protecting and supporting your charge is something that is about as deeply rooted in an angel's instincts as obeying your superior is.

Side note: That does NOT mean that I don't think Castiel ever cared about the Winchesters, or that he wasn't friends with them. I believe he was in the second half of season 4, and for the most part in season 5, though I do already see first hints of Castiel being snapped back by this guardian-charge bond when he doesn't really want to during season 5.

Before his rebellion, all of this wasn't much of a problem because these two instincts (protect your charge and obey Heaven) kept each other balanced when they needed to. Heaven's old order was by no means a good thing, but it wasn't entirely pointless either.

But then Castiel lost his connection to Heaven in more than one way, by rebelling, by rewriting the rules, by cutting himself off because he can't deal with his guilt. Add to that Castiel's need to belong, the way he used to with his family, and things inevitably get out of control.

There are quite a few moments where he wants to fight it, and gets frustrated that he can't, because he has nothing left to use as a counter balance. Mainly, because he has nothing left.

"Of course, your problems always come first."
"Always happy to bleed for the Winchesters."

Just to name two examples.

Whether he actually WANTS to help the Winchesters in some of the cases becomes pretty much irrelevant because he doesn't really have a choice.

This isn't love by any definiton I will accept, and, to be entirely honest, I believe that the Winchesters are the one thing that still stands between Castiel and actual free will.

The good news is that it seems he's starting to find the strength he needs to pull away, and "rebell" against this second force in his life, in himself - sometimes, tragically, in his own pain: Staying behind in Purgatory for himself. Deciding to face his biggest fear and returning to Heaven, and then, when Naomi doesn't allow it, staying in the retirement home. I have hope that Samandriel may be able to help him as well when/if they finally find each other again. Or Inias, should he ever return. Basically anyone who can give him something to hold on.

The bad news is that I doubt the show will ever truly let him pull free. Which is a shame, really, because this is the ONLY way I see how Cas may actually be able, some day, to build a friendship with the Winchesters again. Just like Heaven needed to change in order to prove that the angels do care about each other, and that they are a family, beyond the former order that gave them no choice, Castiel's relationship with the Winchesters has to change to see if they can actually still be friends (which I sincerely doubt at this point but that's a different topic).

(This post was supposed to go on Tumblr because that's mainly where I've read this in the past. But I realized that if I post it there, it will probably be ripped out of my hands faster than I can say "unpopular opinion", and will most likely regret posting it for as long as it gets notes. As much as I love Tumblr, there is reason why I still prefer LJ for these kinds of posts.)

Comments

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

Unpopular Opinion Time

Oh, bb, you weren't kidding. That's some hornet's nest you're poking at. Yes, "unpopular opinion," yes, you would've gotten reamed for this on Tumblr, and yes, you may get grief for this on LJ, too.

I'd say it's reasonable to assume that protecting and supporting your charge is something that is about as deeply rooted in an angel's instincts as obeying your superior is.

Agreed. Castiel was assigned The Righteous Man as his charge. He certainly didn't choose to follow those two around, to become involved in their issues. HIs (understandable) curiosity about humans was obvious, but that curiosity doesn't translate to the Big Epic Love Story that's presented in some parts of fandom. (If you want to get truly clinical about it, you could even say that the Winchesters corrupted him.)

Then, Castiel got lost. First, his faith in Heaven was shaken (and geez, look who was giving the orders -- Zachariah -- no wonder Cas lost his way.), then he lost the Host connection entirely. Agreed that he did grow to like the Winchesters, and, quite possibly, begun "hanging out" with them in an effort to replace what he'd lost by rebelling -- the cameraderie of his old garrison. Look at his interactions with Uriel, Anna, Balthazar, and Inias -- true friendship. Not so much with Dean (and Sam.) What I saw between Castiel and the Winchesters was an attempt to replace what he once had in the form of his garrison. But the Winchesters are only human, and it was never to be. Then Castiel lost his support system and his powers, and thus began the downward spiral. (I like to think that Rachel's no-nonsense approach would've eventually pulled him back, but we know what happened there.) :(

Just like Heaven needed to change in order to prove that the angels do care about each other, and that they are a family, beyond the former order that gave them no choice, Castiel's relationship with the Winchesters has to change to see if they can actually still be friends (which I sincerely doubt at this point but that's a different topic).

Agreed that the "friendship" boat has pretty much sailed. It's a true tragedy what Show has done to Cas, and what parts of fandom have done to him is equally awful. I miss the old Castiel, the angel who walked through those barn doors in 4.01, the badass, no-nonsense angelic soldier. I want that Castiel back like whoa.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Agreed that the "friendship" boat has pretty much sailed. It's a true tragedy what Show has done to Cas, and what parts of fandom have done to him is equally awful. I miss the old Castiel, the angel who walked through those barn doors in 4.01, the badass, no-nonsense angelic soldier. I want that Castiel back like whoa.

I miss that Castiel too. That doesn't mean that I want to throw his entire development out the window. He has learned a lot in the last few years that I would never want to take from him, about acting on his emotions, about understanding humanity and what drives them, about not blindly following orders. But there is a difference between character development and destroying a character's spirit.

And then I see people who seriously think what's happening to him is "cute and funny" or "romantic" and I just don't understand.

I don't know if Castiel can ever be who he was again. Certainly not for a long time, and certainly not without the right kind of support. But he does still have his family - even if he can't believe it right now - and, at least in theory, he has the rest of eternity to heal. But it won't ever happen as long as he stays with the Winchesters.

There is a very fitting quote going around my corner of Tumblr:

"Just because two people are capable of deeply hurting each other over and over again does not make them passionate, star-crossed lovers. It makes them two people who keep doing terrible things to each other. Someone’s ability to make you completely and utterly soul-crushingly miserable does not mean they are a soul mate with some deep insight into your psyche. They are just someone who is really good at making you unhappy."

I wish the show (and with that the Winchesters) would just let him go, just let him walk away and - hopefully - return home, eventually, "no hard feelings but we will only continue to hurt each other so let's not".

And yes, I am fully aware that this would mean the end of Castiel's presence on the show. As long as that means that he finally gets some peace, I'm okay with that. I'd rather not see him at all anymore than see him go through more of this.

And to be completely honest, as much as it hurts me to write this, I think I may even reach the point where I'd rather see him killed off for good if that's the only way to spare him even more pain.

(And now I nearly made myself cry. Welcome to another episode of Tinka is way too emotionally invested in fictional characters.)

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

*hugs* There's nothing wrong with becoming emotionally invested in the characters you love -- I do it all the time. Just don't make yourself TOO miserable. :)

I'm still holding out hope that Naomi is there to help and heal Castiel, rather than for more shady angelic shenanigans. (It would be most cool if she were actually God, finally returned home to fix both Castiel and the mess that Heaven has become.)

And you know? Sometimes, diverging from canon is what you've got to do -- sometimes fanfic is the only way to give your character what he really needs. Perhaps more cathartic conversations between Castiel and Inias need to be written . . . (and I know just the person to write them.) :)

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

I'm still holding out hope that Naomi is there to help and heal Castiel, rather than for more shady angelic shenanigans. (It would be most cool if she were actually God, finally returned home to fix both Castiel and the mess that Heaven has become.)

My guess is that she's Metatron, but either way it would be amazing if her entire story line was part of the "nothing is what it seems" Carver mentioned, and she is honestly trying to help Cas.

sometimes fanfic is the only way to give your character what he really needs. Perhaps more cathartic conversations between Castiel and Inias need to be written

I think you may be right. You don't have any prompts by any chance?

[cassiopeia7.livejournal.com]

My guess is that she's Metatron, but either way it would be amazing if her entire story line was part of the "nothing is what it seems" Carver mentioned, and she is honestly trying to help Cas.

Metatron?!? Ooh, WANT! And yes, I think Carver's being sneaky/tricky again, making Naomi appear slightly dangerous. I'm really hoping that she's there to repair wounded Castiel.

Prompts? Oh, gosh, how about more quiet observations between Cas and Inias, like in "Parting Day"? Or Castiel thinking upon his friendship with Balthazar? Or Balthazar not really being dead? Or Castiel rescuing Samandriel? There's so much to play with . . .

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Oh look, what is that? A plot bunny? *wanders off to follow it*

Unpopular Opinion Time

[enchantersnight.livejournal.com]

Oh hun, I agree with everything you have said.

and with the better part of valour for NOT posting on Tumblr!

Re: Unpopular Opinion Time

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

I am so glad that I'm not the only one who sees it that way. It gives me some hope that the writers might actually be able see it too.

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

I know you've probably been dreading me commenting on this, but I sort of had to, I'm sorry! I'm not here to argue, just wanted to clarify something I notice is different in my understanding that I didn't realise existed between us before (This seems to keep happening, I know! I guess I just find your interpretation really tricky to get a handle on, which makes it fascinating to me tbh, which is why I keep prodding you to explain more) -

I don't think Cas WAS the Winchesters' guardian in the sense you describe. There was NO mention of guardian angels existing in S04 and Cas outright told Dean he was NOT there to 'perch on Dean's shoulder' because angels are NOT guardians, they are warriors of god. So the deeply rooted instinct you describe to protect a 'charge' is not something I believe exists in SPN!angels or ever existed in Castiel towards the Winchesters. SPN!angels, as I understand it, don't HAVE charges (it's always bothered me when that term is used in SPN fic, especially in reference to Dean, because I've never felt it to be canonical).

I think when Cas said that line in TMWWBK he was talking about a role he had come to place ON HIMSELF in regards to the Winchesters. He left Heaven partly because of Sam and Dean, and as a consequence he took it upon himself, of his own free will, to be a guardian to them, in a way no angel (that we know of) had even done with humans before. So when Cas says he still considered himself the Winchesters' guardian, to me he is referring to how he came to consider himself to them through S05.

That you think differently explains LOTS.

Because it means you and me (and you and tumblr :p) interpret ENTIRELY OPPOSING things from the same thing, namely Cas' relationship to the Winchesters. To you it's obligation and thus an object to free will, to me/us it's a emotional connection that exceeds obligation and IS free will.

It's fascinating that we see it so radically differently, it really is.

The kind of obligated love/emotional connection you describe is more in line with how I feel about Cas' relationship with Heaven and angels. You think he needs to pull free from the Winchesters to properly establish his free will, while I feel he needs to pull free from Heaven for the same reason. I don't believe Heaven and angels have changed in the way you say and proved themselves a family and that they genuinely care about each other. Individual angels have come to genuinely care about each other, yes, and start forming family-like relationships, but I do not believe Heaven as a whole has reformed enough that it is a good place for Cas to go back to and be able to build a proper family relationship with his brothers and sisters.

There's no need to discuss this - we know we can't change each other's opinions, we've already tried! - I'm just sorry, sorry, sorry that we see such opposing things about a character we both love, because it makes it kinda tricky to share in our love for Cas, huh? And I'm sorry too that the show and the majority of the fandom seems to be against your interpretation x I do sympathise, even though I can't quite get my head into your thinking. What you're going through reminds me so much of how I felt in the Smallville fandom. I WISH I could be more on your side x And I wish I could tell you it's going to be okay... but I have my doubts about the show being kind to your understanding :(

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Well, I find your interpretation impossible to handle without ignoring most of canon for the last three years, so no, there is no point in discussing this. But there are still a few things that I need to address now (because, fortunately, I know I can be honest with you :)):

Cas outright told Dean he was NOT there to 'perch on Dean's shoulder'

Which honestly, in the way he says it, sounds exactly like an early version of his "Of course, your problems always come first" type of comments to me.


Because it means you and me (and you and tumblr :p) interpret ENTIRELY OPPOSING things

Okay, let me stop you right there and explain the Tumblr thing.
I am not dreading the MAJORITY of SPN fans (or more precisely Castiel fans, I'm pretty sure the rest just doesn't care that much) on Tumblr. I'm dreading a certain group.
And I'm pretty sure (and your comment confirms that) had I posted it on Tumblr you - or one of the roughly two other Castiel/Dean shippers who follow me there - would have replied to it. Now, that's not a problem in itself because I know you are civil about this kind of clash in views. But you inevitably would have reblogged it to add your thoughts, and that would have handed it over to the exact group of people I am trying to avoid.

I am sure, however, that about 90% of the people I surround myself with on Tumblr would agree, if maybe not with every detail of this post, then at the very least with the notion of wanting to get Castiel as far away from the Winchesters as possible and reuniting him with his family (and the reason I'm sad that I "can't" post this on Tumblr is because I'd love to know if we agree in the details as well).

So, while you may not be aware of them, there are a lot of Castiel fans who share my view. And I keep finding more.
And I keep finding people who join us because of what they see right now, in season 8.


Individual angels have come to genuinely care about each other, yes, and start forming family-like relationships, but I do not believe Heaven as a whole has reformed enough [...]

Angels we know by name: Michael, Lucifer, Gabriel, Raphael, Castiel, Uriel, Anna, Zachariah, Joshua, Balthazar, Virgil, Rachel, Hester, Inias, Samandriel, Naomi (16)

Angels who have expressed (familial) love to other angels on screen: Michael and Lucifer, Gabriel, Castiel, Anna, Balthazar, Rachel, (Hester), Inias, Samandriel (9-10)

I'm leaving out Cupid because I honestly have no idea how to sort him.

If more than half the angels we know qualifies as "individual angels" to you, and you choose to believe that they don't represent most of Heaven then - I guess you can do that. It doesn't sound very likely to me.


And please stop saying you are sorry. I'm not. I don't want to see the current relationship between Castiel and and the Winchesters, the way it has been presented in the last few seasons (and still is presented. Absolutely nothing has changed in that respect), as anything good, and the thought that people do is something I find, quite frankly, disturbing. I could also tell you that I am sorry you can't see the the amazing bond between the angels as a family because it's so beautiful, but maybe you just don't care to and that's okay, so I won't.

(There will, by the way, most likely be another, very personal post later today that I only haven't posted yet because I wanted to sleep on whether I actually want to share this first. And I think that post may explain some things as well.)

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

Angels who have expressed (familial) love to other angels on screen: Michael and Lucifer, Gabriel, Castiel, Anna, Balthazar, Rachel, (Hester), Inias, Samandriel (9-10)

I class the archangels differently - they only show familial love to each other. I consider the archangels a family of 4. I don't believe any of them truly cared for angels below their rank.

I do not interpret what we see in canon of Anna, Rachel, Inias... or even, yet, Samandriel's interactions with other angels or comments about other angels as 'familial love.' Anna showed care for Cas, because being human had taught her about love and stuff, but it never felt much more than workplace affection to me (although it COULD have become more). And I think what the acts/words of the other angels show is a growing awareness of previously suppressed emotions and people starting to acknowledge and embrace their suppressed emotions, but I don't believe those angels truly had a handle on their feelings enough to say they had come to love each other and Cas as free beings who saw who each other and Cas as they really are and loved them for it. The love was a blend of hero worship and camaraderie from sharing a foxhole - not exactly the healthy 'I love you for who you are' love I believe Cas needs.

To be fair - I consider that the same unhealthy love Dean was showing Cas in S06. But I (or in my reading of canon, I) can see Dean improving. I'm not sure about the angels. I'd really really like to see how Heaven is NOW.

If more than half the angels we know qualifies as "individual angels" to you, and you choose to believe that they don't represent most of Heaven then - I guess you can do that. It doesn't sound very likely to me.

So with archangels as separate that leaves Cas, who I feel is unique. Anna, who is also unique to those left in Heaven because she fell, plus she didn't seem to care about angels other than Cas anyway. Balthazar, who I also consider a unique case, and who also didn't seem to care about angels who weren't Cas. Rachel, Inias, Samandriel and Hestor, whose love is problematic to me (well, maybe not Samandriel's - I think he's the first in the new wave of self-aware loving angels you describe). Plus those last are 4 out of hundreds... seems likely to me that they don't represent most of Heaven, yes. I feel like we are shown them BECAUSE they are individual and unique. I see most of Heaven as the faceless angels Cas fought through S05 and the single-minded angels who fought for Raphael.

So, I guess your interpretation is ignoring the last three years of canon to me.

I'm glad there are many people on tumblr with your opinion though. I'd say I promise not to reblog if you post there, but I can't, of course, speak for anyone else.

And I AM sorry I don't see the bond between all the angels you do. I DO care. I hate it when there's an interpretation of something I love that I don't 'get,' it makes me feel like I'm doing the story injustice. And the fact you find my understanding of the bond between Cas and the Winchesters disturbing... disturbs ME, because it makes me scared I'm blinding romanticising abuse and I REALLY don't want to do that. But I'm not doing anything blindly here, I promise, I've thought SO INCREDIBLY HARD about all this.

So when I say 'I'm sorry' it's not so much because I want you to see Cas and the Winchesters' relationship like I do - it's because I'm concerned you must think me a horrible person to like the relationship and... I'm apologising for appearing that person to you, and for how fandom is appearing that way and the show seems to be endorsing an abusive relationship.

IDK. This has got away from me. I'm just overall sad we are on different sides of a divide here and generally 'sorry' about that I suppose.

As long as you're happy? x

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

And here we are, kind of discussing it after all. It seems we are just unable not to. ;)

So, I will simply not get any deeper into the relationships between the angels topic, except for one more (mostly rhetorical) question: How can you possibly see Inias's love as problematic? Inias? I think I might actually have an easier time wrapping my head around someone claiming that Balthazar's love is problematic (and I'm sure you have a pretty good idea what that means).

And the fact you find my understanding of the bond between Cas and the Winchesters disturbing... disturbs ME, because it makes me scared I'm blinding romanticising abuse and I REALLY don't want to do that. But I'm not doing anything blindly here, I promise, I've thought SO INCREDIBLY HARD about all this.

I don't doubt that you have thought about it but... I'm afraid I can't help you there. To me, it is and continues to be one of the worst, most abusive relationships I have ever witnessed on any show, and every new episode only confirms it.

So when I say 'I'm sorry' it's not so much because I want you to see Cas and the Winchesters' relationship like I do - it's because I'm concerned you must think me a horrible person to like the relationship and... I'm apologising for appearing that person to you [...]

Oh, honey, no. I do not think that you are a horrible person. We've been friends long enough for me to know that you are not. I don't understand you in this case, at all. And, yes, I might get slightly annoyed sometimes (though, in reality, that has little do do with you personally and more with the general behaviour of parts (!!!) of your ship's fandom), but I will most definitely not judge you as a person based solely on a ship you like.

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

I know, I know about the discussing. I honestly didn't mean to!

Right, I will (try and) say short things now to try and stop this snowballing.

Inias' love - that would fall under the 'hero-worship' and 'foxhole bonding' in my mind (the foxhole being the civil war, because I don't think any of the angels ever really cared for each other much pre-S06, minus the occassional exception, like Bal). I don't doubt that Inias' love is strong, but I question whether it is actually for Cas, as he is, and not just an idolised image of Cas or a love born of the sense of obligation you describe as angels feeling for their 'charges' - Inias, as a lovely angel, seems to feel all angels should love each other and so naturally extends a general love to Cas.

I do think Inias had great potential to come to love Cas 'right' (if we can even actually define love in this way) and be a REAL brother to Cas though. As did Rachel. As does Samandriel. I just don't think, in the onscreen time we saw them, that they were at that point YET.

That's it. The end! I know you see the above differently, that's cool :) I know you won't understand what I'm saying either, and that's cool too :) But that's the answer to your question, as unsatisfactory as it may be :p

To me, it is and continues to be one of the worst, most abusive relationships I have ever witnessed on any show, and every new episode only confirms it.

This is why our differences bug me - because I felt the same about Clex. And being on the opposite side to someone feeling my previous fandom pain makes me feel like a tratior, especially when it's someone I like and whose opinion I value.

Hi ho, ce sera I suppose.

Take it easy, hon x